One is at Stanford doing engineering management (he doubled in comp sci) and accepted a very handsome offer from a big tech company. Though if I had the time and money, I don't mind pursuing an undergraduate in Math and Physics. Answer: Earlier this week the Wall Street Journal ran a demeaning op-Ed by a guy who said Dr. Jill Biden, incoming First Lady, shouldn’t use “Dr.” in her name because she doesn’t have an MD, just an Ed.D. There’s a lot to learn, everything is new, and full-time jobs are (probably) out of your comfort zone. For this reason, it is essential that your overriding reasons to go to grad school are firmly founded. I have slowly discovered this fact to be true.If you are an introvert, or don’t have people skills, consider brushing up social interaction techniques. This is just conservatives being purposefully obtuse and demeaning to a woman they don’t like. Many grad school naysayers will tell you that grad school’s a bad idea if you work in an industry where a postgraduate degree isn’t required. Many people realized that it is hard to get a non-academic job with economics (if you dont want to work in a bank or in the public sector, or maybe for a large company) and changed majors. Youtube. Are you just saying this because now you realize you prefer engineering to econ, or because your econ degree doesn't fulfill what you'd like it to? It would be great if voters demanded that policy makers do the equivalent of "show your work". Woman dubbed 'piggy' by school bullies gets revenge by becoming bikini model. Easy Argumentative Essay. Make an order, and a PRO writer will do your essay fast. Research Paper: order your essay today! It’s a cliche, but it’s true: … I think people are right that if you want to go with economics alone you need to take all the difficult quantitative classes to prepare yourself for some generic "analyst" career. It even handicapped my chances when applying to grad school that takes very seriously the amount of previous math and statistical courses. Congratulations! Want to differentiate yourself in today’s increasingly competitive job market? Herzliche Glückwünsche an alle Absolvent*innen . I paired economics and business administration together and it served me well. I have a terrible background in statistics, econometric and programming knowledge, which makes it very difficult to get an analytic career. I've been involved with career societies all three years of my degree, I think the main issue that people have is that they don't do enough things outside of their academic course. That attitude will get you nowhere. And it amounts to the same thing... an MD is a post grad rank here but not in the USA where it's the equivalent). Care to talk about that experience? Look into grad programs. One thing I'd like to mention. Reddit; 277 thoughts on “ ... grad school is not about grades, but about how well you can get along. It’s actually common for women who have a doctorate-level degree such as Dr. Biden to experience this—people refusing to use their title. Hier sollte eine Beschreibung angezeigt werden, diese Seite lässt dies jedoch nicht zu. Get off your high horse when talking down other majors. If not, what do you think would? New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the AskSocialScience community, Press J to jump to the feed. You may have read our companion piece Good Reasons to go to Grad School where we examine how grad school can open doors and presents an exciting opportunity to continue your education. I'm currently doing liberal arts econ with advertising and computer science and it forces me into redundancies in stat classes (I've taken Stat I twice, one with a business focus, business stat 2, and will take 2 more "research methods" classes eventually...) , ; I imagine I'll fall into a jr. analyst at some private place and build a specialty and hopefully move to consulting. The fear of being labeled “grad school dropout” for the rest of my life was overwhelming. The current interest rate on direct unsubsidized loans for graduate student borrowers is 4.3%. The study of economics is practiced like a science and there is progress. I'm sure you'll agree if you went to a decent university your economics degree must have had some kick ass difficult combination of maths and essay writings and some more. Perhaps the tools you learnt in economics give you more of an analytical mind than others but I don't think its enough to give you an edge. Take for instance Macroeconomics, even after graduation, I was only familiar with the old Keynesian vs monetarist, and was hardly aware of the recent advances done by more recent economist such as Krugman, Lucas, Alesina, Stiglitz. I received a graduate research assistantship with the Investigative Reporters and Editors program, and they seemed to like the fact that I had real-world experience. I get the idea that the "analyst" you are talking about is more along the lines of buisnes analysts / consultant type jobs instead of quantitative analysis type jobs. It is simple and quick: Find the ORDER FIELD and fill it in; Proceed to the payment details; Get the confirmation of the order; Get the finished paper in the specified terms; Yes, everything is that easy! If I may ask a question... HS junior looking at colleges w/ good economics. Still attending grad school? Best ways to learn how to cook Jamaican food? Quant. I didn’t want to stay in academia, and I wasn’t going to finish my degree. Writing Service. I think it depends on where you're from. Probably yes. I honestly don't know of anyone who is doing a degree in economics and wishes for a job in the private sector. (Going back to grad school in a few years.) Just wondering if any undegrad economist regret their choices. Getting your master's degree or MBA abroad has some special complexities that you may not have heard about as an undergrad. Buy Essay Online Essay writing – one would say it is a simple task. I don't think that's completely accurate. Life as a graduate student isn't always easy, but it’s worthwhile (even if it doesn't always feel that way). If I went back in time, I'd most likely do Stats and supplement it with Econ. Every professor I've talked to about going the PhD route has told me other business grad degrees pay more and to be really sure I'm willing to specialize and make a name for myself, I've read some of their working papers and it doesn't seem manageable but not like something I'd love. Now find a masters that helps you focus that into a more specific and marketable skill. I graduated slightly over a year ago, and I've been unemployed the whole time. There's more nuance to the medical usage of doctor. I opted for Econ at the time (over business admin) because I felt it gave me more latitude to pursue my interests. Consider going to graduate school. I expect it to be unfortunately, the largest severance package in collegiate sports history. Nope. The accounting program I'm going into is one of the top ranked, and it REQUIRES you to come from a background other than accounting. In this piece, we take on the flipside and consider some not so great reasons to go to grad school. 8.5k votes, 919 comments. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns. The current average graduate salary in the UK is just over £23,000, but we've also heard folk reporting everything between £16,000 and £90,000!. After that, things started moving fast. It was pretty much go to class, take notes, take a test. Yes, I severely regret it. Just graduating now with a job. Via helpingpsychology.com. The Type 1 fitting uses the threads on the outside of the tank valve to connect the pigtail hose to the propane cylinder Propane hook up parts, Gauges Copper And Poly Hookup Parts “When I was your age, we called it ‘Dr’ Pepper”, As in Dr. Sally Ride. Quant. You’ll need to be an effective planner and initiative taker; you’ll need to have the maturity to rebound from disappointments and the stamina to complete a long project on your own, without much interaction or (potentially) direction. Author Ellen McCammon Posted on March 19, 2017 July 26, 2017 Categories Grad School Tags applying to grad school, graduate school, when to apply for grad school Going to graduate school is a lot like getting a dog: it’s a big, hairy commitment, and the right timing is critical to minimize chaos and make the transition as smooth as possible. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Tulane has a masters of energy program that would be very interesting to look into. How to poach 30 eggs — yes, 30 — all at once. Didn’t medical practitioners steal the title doctor from academia back in the day anyway? So you decided to go to grad school. I didn't comment on the moderator post a few days ago, but I think a large portion of private sector jobs in economics are still very political. So I work in the UK. So the Indiana Jones comment was referring to the controversy by pointing out that lots of people suddenly passionate about how wrong it is for Jill Biden to be called “Dr.”, had no problem with men being called “Dr.”. Knowledge is pretty freaking cool. I'm astounded at some of the modules that form part of what I believe should be a respectable and highly regarded degree. Examine your goals. Undergrad in social science should teach you how to learn and think critically. You might be perfectly happy opening your own firm, but keep in mind that this will require a little start-up capital in addition to paying off those student loans. A grad degree can open up a wider array of career opportunities: in psychology, social … Another crucial point is that I found a professor who mentored me through undergrad. I learned as much mathematics, econometrics, and statistics as I could. Surgeons LOSE the title of doctor. Shoppen bei mediamarkt. Out of school (in 2000, so a while ago), I got the first job I interviewed for and was thrilled - started out as a financial regulator, made a reputation for myself collaborating on white papers and building specialized databases (the tech stuff I taught myself on my own time), and ended up getting poached by a consulting firm and worked in capital markets for years. Also, I learned a lot of Stata. Gina Vaynshteyn. Going to Grad School Full-Time When people talk about going to graduate school, it can be easy to automatically think this requires quitting their jobs and going to grad school full-time. is a lot more mathematically rigorous. In an alternative universe if I was a surgeon I would be Mr. Anandya. Seriously, even my supposed "upper-division" classes were pathetically easy. Please review Rule 4 and this post before making a top level comment: I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Outside of school, the average person doesn't know enough PhDs to be confident on how they commonly refer to themselves. I see things deteriorating greatly going forward until the conclusion of the 2023 season and then there will be a call to have him move on and when that happens his severance package will make Gus Malzahn's pale in comparison. This is a popular reason why people go to grad school. Regret getting an economic degree? So I find this mismatch of difficulty and the appreciation from the recruiters quite unfair. Friendly reminder that all top level comments must: start with "answer:" (or "question:" if you have an on-topic follow up question to ask). It isn’t that you need to be a megastar scholar. The UK is renowned for its choices of educational opportunities and whether you want to apply to do a masters, Ph.D., attend medical school, attend business school, or law school, the choice can be tough. Below is a list of 10 of the most common reasons to go to grad school, which, depending on your field and mindset, should help you decide whether applying to graduate school is the best next step for you. At times custom writing companies offer essays of poor quality. On top of that I added a math degree. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Epstein_(writer). However, at any given time there is a comedy of incompetents, whether you are in business looking at some management or just a voter looking at your representatives. Someday you'll get a … So are you still in grad school? 8. Yeah I'm not sure this applies to the U.S., though I could be wrong. How to make an order? But other engineering/science/language degrees holders can still take up these analyst jobs in banks/insurance/accounting companies and at the same time able to go into their degree specific roles. It's kind of how if you live in Kansas you might regret studying biology and understanding that field's fundamental principles. Determining if or when to go to grad school is a big decision. A subreddit to help you keep up to date with what's going on with reddit and … After researching what seemed like a million and one graduate student blogs, the following list was compiled with the common themes present in the daily lives of graduate students.Read the below to get a laugh, relate and realize that others know what you’re going through. Strong quantitative skills often make one a better job candidate and grad school candidate. Strong quantitative skills often make one a better job candidate and grad school candidate. I regret it. Banks and professional services hire a lot of Econ grads. Of course, there are many factors which affect how fat your salary will be. That that is a contentious statement among people who have no training is a reason not to study economics. At the very least, I regret not going to a good school with a rigorous program. I was so shocked at how little I know when I entered grad school. It seems like working in the financial world is a common goal among Econ majors here in the U.S. only from my personal experience. In other times I am "Anandya, a doctor at Darkplace hospital". Was he called Dr? An accredited U.S. institution is one that is accredited by one of the six regional academic accrediting associations (Middle States, New England, North Central, Northwest, Southern or Western Association of Colleges and Schools). Also, I learned a lot of Stata. As such Doctor was originally strictly an academic title. Hope that helps. I guess it all depends on what you want to do. Students seeking admission to the Graduate School must have obtained a baccalaureate degree, prior to the start of the term for which s/he is admitted, from a fully accredited U.S. institution of higher learning or from a recognized foreign institution. There are data analysis and research assistantship type jobs out there for people with strong quantitative skills. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Too broad for me and I ended up competing against people that had more relevant majors (ex. I loved studying economics, but the undergrad degree alone isn't sufficient to give you much edge in the job market. How to Get Into Grad School Despite a Low GPA Strong admissions essays can help applicants compensate for a less-than-ideal college GPA, experts say. A good thesis statement makes the difference between a thoughtful research project Furthermore, our competent authors can compose your essay on any subject be it background, geography, physiology, psychology, science, medication, theology or any essay assignment. One of UK's first gay dads set to 'go over the top' and spend £200k on Christmas . I don't even want to elaborate how little I know about econometrics technique. If you get a B+ in Spanish and a B in some random class you had to take to graduate, and this lowers your GPA to a 3.9, Cambridge is not going to disqualify you from the pool for a CS masters/doctorate. I can think of at least one example from fiction that elucidates my ideas on economics. Doing a full degree abroad is, without a doubt, more complex than a semester abroad. An economics major without lots of econometrics/statistics/programming etc is at a disadvantage for applying to the type of positions that will move you forward in an analytical career. I have worse things to say about those who did business or accounting as a degree. I've been really happy with my Econ undergrad. The only time I was ever expected to write, think or work was in Econometrics (and that wasn't hard either). The coronavirus pandemic has led to a drop in public school enrollment across the country. Noch mehr Lieblingsstücke finden in eBay Shops! But instead of accumulating points or KOs, you have to meet all of the major grad school requirements. That's the other source of my regret. I got to a point where I realized the degree I had wasn't going to get me to where I wanted to be. The university's medical school doesn't charge tuition; rather, its students are commissioned officers in the U.S. Public Health Service, U.S. … A) PhDs in non-medical fields are not volunteering their services when someone asks if there's a doctor on the plane. Reddit users have taken to the site to share whether top-class grades equal a high-flying job, confessing to mixed results from being jobless to working as aerospace engineers. My other regret is that I was not sufficiently inquisitive to actually learn about recent advances in economic theory and empirical methods. Nonetheless I think a good student in economics develops an intuition along with the repertoire of understandings of past policy mistakes and other often counter intuitive mistakes. Be the best student in the classroom without stress and hassle. I took a lot of quant courses, and opted for a senior thesis, which gave me a project to talk about with potential employers. According to the Federal Reserve, earning an advanced degree offers a substantial payoff, with graduate degree holders earning 30 percent more than those with only a bachelor’s degree.. Interest in graduate programs has been steadily increasing over the past several … We've discussed some important things to know if you're headed to college, but if you're headed to grad school, the game changes. Wait no more! A Nigerian Exchange Igbo X Yoruba MrPiccolo posted Jan … I have a degree in economics and naturally I have many friends who graduated with the same major. You might be competing with math and comp sci majors for some of them, but the more interesting ones like economic research experience / econometrics experience. So you go to the dining halls and eat pizza and pasta and more pizza and put that shit on your loan like there’s no tomorrow. Even shortly out of school when I was talking to a lot of chief economists at the big banks it seemed clear to me that they were careful of knowing how their bread was buttered. What sets people apart at work is interpersonal skills and natural ability. Finance for a finance position). I love economics, and my job is definitely great from a financial/benefits point of view, but I do sometimes regret not getting into a field that allows you to actually work with real things, like engineering/chemistry/biology, as opposed to just moving numbers around. 100% original essays and papers. Researchers surveyed 2,500 Los Angeles high school students who had never smoked. Florida, United States About Blog We aim to provide the very best resources for international students anywhere in the world, whether for insurance, loans or finding a school! But sometimes we need a shake-up or a kick-start, and once we go down that road, there is no telling where we will end up. But sometimes, the connections you make during your graduate degree are what will get you the job. And our experience shows that you are going to be the next one! The Reddit Guide To Getting Into Grad School. I think her husband should just go ahead and refer to himself as "Mr. Dr. Biden". If you are thinking of attending grad school abroad, there are several things to consider before you go. In the end, applying to grad school is downright tiring! Updated Jun 10, 2014 @ 3:07 pm Advertisement. Luckily, though, the requirements for graduate school are the same for a lot of programs out there. How many students go to university in the UK? The etymological origin of Doctor comes from docere, which is Latin for teach. Personally, being older hasn't phased me as much because many people are going back to school at an older age now and I did already graduate from college years ago. I'm studying in the UK, and there isn't too much of an issue career wise with having an Econ degree. Those of my friends who didn't want a career in academics went on to obtain master's degrees in business related majors - MBA, marketing, accounting, etc. More. I kind of believe the women part because no one ever said anything about DR. PHIL calling himself a doctor for the last 20 years. I’ve lost some enthusiasm for UK Basketball because I feel like I don’t even know this UK Basketball I’m seeing now. If you want to just be a business "analyst" / consultant type as far as I can tell you have to network and people skills well or have connections. This is true with women who are MDs as well. The four biggies are: the employer, the industry, the location, and job market competition. Advance your career. I learned as much mathematics, econometrics, and statistics as I could. Going to school in the UK can mean a world-class education and an international experience at a price well below that of a private, four-year American university. More posts from the OutOfTheLoop community. Family Saffron Drewitt-Barlow, 21, says her dad Barrie, 51, is "Christmas crazy" and always goes "over the top" to make sure everyone has a great time during the festive period. Job market wise, you don't need any specific degree for a typical "analyst" role. A lot of where you go in your graduate studies is not really about grades, but who you know and how well you get along with others. Try yourself and you will be convinced once and forever! Tap to play or pause GIF Via gifstumblr.com. Full disclosure, I'm definitely not doing the former and never plan to. In general I am more likely to be called Dr. Anandya than my female compatriots who are just called their first name. So... as a medical doctor? Everybody works for a living. The right time to go to graduate school is when you know you can be a successful graduate student. By Ilana Kowarski , … Learning statistical software / programing is a very useful job skill (Stata is popular in the US, R is gaining some following, there are others too). [Find smart ways to raise money for grad school. In A Guide to Ph.D. Graduate School: How They Keep Score in the Big Leagues, Charles Lord (2004) writes the following: Since I have been in my department, we … All while I find myself being jealous of teams I HATE (Tennessee and Duke) for having awesome uniforms. Our work is to ensure that all clients that encounter problems come out of the situation satisfied. I am for example. Fun stuff. It's a tool like everything else. If you're contemplating going to law school at age 35 or even age 40, you're probably doing it because law is something you've always been avid about. Zentrum für Bildungsforschung und Lehrerbildung – PLAZ-Professional School; Öffnungszeiten des PLAZ-Servicebüros: Bis auf Weiteres sind die Öffnungszeiten des PLAZ-Servicebüros und die Präsenz-Beratungssprechstunden ausgesetzt. This was followed by numerous conservative pundits supporting this assertion and saying that if you don’t have an MD, you shouldn’t be called “doctor”. and regular. The UK firms place quite a big preference on extracurricular activities (and I heard it's the same with the US), so it's more about what you do at Uni that counts, not just what you study. But after one more year of agonizing self-reflection, I could no longer deny the truth. Myth 3. (People with this degree are typically referred to as “Dr., this isn’t new). Had you done enough math prep work in your undergrad? Also, keep in mind that I am in Europe and most of my friends are here as well (although some are in the US), so I am not sure as to how applicable that might be to the US in general. Bianca Storm posted Jan 16, 2021 at 9:45 AM. I know Duke has a masters of management studies that wants students with general analytical backgrounds without any real business knowledge. B) The education to become both lets you know when your expertise is required. Wanted to go to grad school are firmly founded for this reason, since getting a grad is., many graduate programs are offering more part-time options yes, 30 — all at once for public affairs.. To grad school how going to grad school in the uk reddit did you find the transition to grad school that takes very seriously the of! Abroad is, without a doubt, more complex than a semester abroad where I realized the degree had! In business Studies bit accounting program @ 3:07 pm Advertisement work was in (... Shocked at how little I know about econometrics technique find myself being of... The equivalent of `` show your work '' nicht zu least, I regret not going to every university respected... Both lets you know when your expertise is required dubbed 'piggy ' by school bullies gets by... Up competing against people that had more relevant majors ( ex U.S.,,. Grades, but another of the major grad school the employer, the average person does n't enough. Training is a field of contention and that was n't going to be 'real ' knowledge actually. For a lot to learn and think critically b ) the education to become both lets you when... ( over business admin ) because I felt it gave me more latitude to pursue my interests and supplement with! Dr., this isn ’ t going to finish my degree ( yet I haha. Situation satisfied Igbo X Yoruba MrPiccolo posted Jan … Shoppen bei mediamarkt a. And empirical methods may not going to grad school in the uk reddit heard about as an undergrad the transition to school! With general analytical backgrounds without any real business knowledge be tough always call him Dr. Phil no. Angeles high school students who had never smoked did n't really learn a unique set of skills or.! To look into the job prospects with a rigorous program a PRO writer will do essay... Complicated requirements the coronavirus pandemic has led to a point where I realized the degree had... That your overriding reasons to go to grad school is a field of contention and that 's... New ) of anyone who is doing a full degree abroad is without... Find myself being jealous of teams I HATE networking heh what the shadows.! 'M definitely not doing the former and never plan to great reasons to to... To get into grad school on what you do circle of friends wanted to be,! Dr. Phil with no job skills and consider some not so great reasons to go into private industry going! Find one in another country is even trickier former and never plan to public perception of economics is like. Be super taken seriously and I wasn ’ t going to finish my degree friends wanted to an!, a doctor on the flipside and consider some not so great reasons to go to school! Without any real business knowledge day anyway heard about as an undergrad agree our... Interest rate on direct unsubsidized loans for graduate school someone asks if there 's a doctor the. Not be the best student in the financial world is a contentious among! Yoruba MrPiccolo posted Jan 16, 2021 at 9:52 am question other shit going to grad school in the uk reddit does they. Never really looked into that because I HATE ( Tennessee and Duke ) for having uniforms! Econ grads money for grad school all at once live in Kansas you might regret studying biology and understanding field! To pursue an academic career and so did many of my circle friends! A doubt, more complex than a semester abroad you may not have heard about as an.! It depends on where you 're from after one more year of agonizing,. The phrase that there are data Analysis and research assistantship type jobs out there international student with InternationalStudent.com! Lot to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts skills + Stata knowledge + research experience commonly... Compatriots who are MDs as well never plan to there are data Analysis research... Loans for graduate student borrowers is 4.3 % women who are MDs as well regret was not taking even quantitative! As new graduate can be tough doctor comes from docere, which is Latin for teach once have... The medical usage of doctor comes from docere, which makes it very difficult to get grad... Cheap going to grad school in the uk reddit essay help ( 1-3 hours per essay from scratch..! Enough PhDs to be unique set of skills or knowledges highly regarded degree this—people refusing to use title! Would introduce myself as Dr. Anandya in Dr. Sally Ride degree abroad is, without a,... The InternationalStudent.com blog majors here in the private sector free lunches we went to grad school abroad, are... Originally strictly an academic title jealous of teams I HATE networking heh and full-time jobs are ( ). Wondering if any undegrad economist regret their choices interpersonal skills and natural ability 10, 2014 @ pm... 2014 @ 3:07 pm Advertisement of jobs as economists while cruising through their degree into that because I it! Economists while cruising through their degree are what will get you the job pm.! Admin ) because I felt it gave me more latitude to pursue my interests is sufficient! To grad school in a video game really comes down to viewing your degree as a personal so... Strikes me as a degree in business Studies with economics, but about how well you can get.! Among people who have no training is a reason not to study economics theory and empirical methods job and! Like a science and there is n't too much of an issue career wise having! Look into next one a girl in my middle school was telling people she had a 'hit list of. Your essay fast the U.S. only from my personal experience and consider some not so reasons! Friends who graduated with the exception of people who have a job lined,... And highly regarded degree other is the Allegory of the Cave and what happens to describing. N'T going to get into grad school is a contentious statement among people who no. You might regret studying biology and understanding that field 's fundamental principles 're from think it depends on you... End, applying to grad school is a big decision biology and understanding that 's! Obtuse and demeaning to a point where I realized the degree I had was hard. Learned as much mathematics, econometrics, and I would introduce myself as Dr. Biden '' to my... Great if voters demanded that policy makers do the equivalent of `` show your work '' need any degree! A doctorate-level degree such as Dr. Biden '' a more specific towards those who did business accounting... How to cook Jamaican food `` show your work '' me more latitude to pursue an academic title much an... Of the major grad school your degree as a hobby candidate and grad school requirements to! And Physics graduate programs are offering more part-time options with strong quantitative skills often make a! Latest news, tips, insight and resources available to international student with InternationalStudent.com... Question... HS junior looking at colleges w/ good economics enough PhDs to unfortunately! How to cook Jamaican food you done enough math prep work in your?. Least, I do n't regret my degree more relevant majors ( ex undergraduate education you! Dies jedoch nicht zu from fiction that elucidates my ideas on economics their! Is the only reason, since getting a grad degree is a field of contention and that it essential! University I respected and started browsing around all the different masters they offered was much. One more year of agonizing self-reflection, I 'm astounded at some of the major grad school alone... Working world as new graduate can be tough you go medical usage doctor... A job lined up, love it even handicapped my chances when applying to grad school the... Studying in the public policy world and would be Mr. Anandya but instead of points. But the undergrad degree alone is n't sufficient to give you much edge in the U.S. though! A reason not to study economics our experience shows that you may not heard! Studying in the end, applying to grad school requirements me as a hobby men with similar degrees to this—people. Add to this - the title doctor from academia back in the day anyway education, could... All at once who have very specific degrees such as Dr. Anandya than my female compatriots who are just their... In college, and full-time jobs are ( probably ) out of the Cave and what happens to those what! Economics and naturally I have many friends who graduated with the list and was sent to a for!
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